!!!NEWBS!!!READ THIS!!!NEWBS!&

Forum: Linux �and Free Software
Topic: !!!NEWBS!!!READ THIS!!!NEWBS!&
started by: Grim

Posted by Grim on Jan. 11 2006,23:33

< Linux is Not Windows >

--quote--
If, as I do, you spend any amount of time on a Linux forum, you'll eventually grow exasperated, as I did, by the number of posts that run something like this:

"Hi! I've been using Linux for a few days, and it's mostly great. But, it's a shame that [something or other] doesn't work like it does on Windows. Why don't all the developers completely rewrite all the software so it acts more like Windows? I'm sure Linux would get lots more users if they did!"

You may even have had a go at answering these questions, only to be shot down in flames by a Linux newbie who takes it as read that his idea, based on years of experience with a different OS plus a few hours on Linux, is revolutionarily brilliant, and you only don't like it because you're an "old-school Linux user" who thinks that GUIs are the spawn of the Devil and everybody should be forced to stick to the CLI.

This article is aimed at explaining to those newbies exactly why their ideas tend to get flamed rather than embraced.
--quote--

Read it, learn it, love it...bitches.

Posted by pr0f3550r on Jan. 12 2006,00:55

All true stuff, my friend, but... what about the fun you get when you see them dumbasses bumping into something they don't know and learn the hard lesson?
Priceless...

Posted by AwPhuch on Jan. 12 2006,01:49

Quote

They come to Linux with many Windows habits ingrained and an attitude of "I know exactly how to use a computer, thank you very much." The problem is, they don't. They only know how to use Windows. When they come to a different OS, these "power users" can be the ones who have the worst problems: They have far more to unlearn.

OMFG..how true....this was my biggest obstacle...accepting the fact they they were two different...once I got that past that..the heavens openend up, beams of light shined down, the angels sang in one voice..and I "got" linux...then I saw how much alike they were..and could differentiate the two!!

THIS IS A MUST READ FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Im posting this up on every forum I go to..great find!!!!!!!!!

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by mikshaw on Jan. 12 2006,05:53

Why do so many people quote the word "got" when used in a sentence such as "I finally got it"? It only serves to distract the reader and make him wonder what the quotes are for. If you don't quote the present tense (e.g. "Do you get what I'm saying?") it's silly to quote the past tense of the same word.

That said....the "Linux is not Windows" article is perhaps the most accurate description of The Problem that I've ever read.

Posted by ke4nt1 on Jan. 12 2006,06:21

Thanks for the link.. Will forward it in bulk..

ke4nt

Posted by pr0f3550r on Jan. 12 2006,11:05

Whaaaaaaaaaat? Are you saying that Linux is not windows? How can I browse the web without Internet Explorer?

Posted by Ivan-NL on Jan. 12 2006,13:04

Nice read

Problem these days is that at the moment people grow up with Windows, either because it's the only system they know or because it's forced upon them.

You are forced to use it because your school only accepts Word documents (ok, there is Open Office...), or because on your job they only can read stuff made in MS Office.

If you want your children to have a knowledge leap, make sure to get them accusomed to Linux... Any low level computer knowledge that you pick up then will stay with you for ages. Windows can come later.

From my experience i know that i can use almost any GUI after a few minutes experimenting, be it KDE, Gnome, OS9 or Windows. Commandline is what makes the difference.

I started with a C64, after that DOS (i think it was 5.1) and only then made the partial step to Windows (first 3.11 which was so bad that you usually messed around with it only when you absolutely needed it, after that Win 95 (start, exit to dos prompt) and 98.
Even with WinXP and Win2K i still use the commandline quite often... which gives some weird reactions from teachers at school (having java compile under the 'repeat command' key on the console instead of using the menu in the text editor)

Posted by cbagger01 on Jan. 12 2006,18:22

You used OS9?

6809 or 680xx version?

Posted by doobit on Jan. 12 2006,18:42

I used CP/M with the Xerox GEM office package. I remember it like yesterday...um what did I do yesterday anyway?

Posted by Grim on Jan. 13 2006,00:46

Quote (cbagger01 @ Jan. 12 2006,11:22)

You used OS9?

6809 or 680xx version?

Are you talking Mac OS9 or Plan9?

Posted by Ivan-NL on Jan. 13 2006,16:00

Quote (cbagger01 @ Jan. 12 2006,13:22)

You used OS9?

6809 or 680xx version?

Dunno what version, but it was on an older Imac... anyway, the monitor high-voltage power section died (blowing sparks around to the grounded parts of it's casing) while working with it (which makes the same sound as the harddisk of the thing)

Posted by AwPhuch on Jan. 14 2006,04:16

Quote (mikshaw @ Jan. 12 2006,00:53)

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/handouts/grammar/g_overvw.html

Quotation Marks " "

Use quotation marks . . .
in the following situations:

for example:

to enclose direct quotations. Note that commas and periods go inside the closing quotation mark in conventional American usage; colons and semicolons go outside; and placement of question and exclamation marks depends on the situation (see our quotation marks document).

He asked, "Will you be there?" "Yes," I answered, "I'll look for you in the foyer."

to indicate words used ironically, with reservations, or in some unusual way; but don't overuse quotation marks in this sense, or they will lose their impact.

History is stained with blood spilled in the name of "civilization."

I sucked at english...and grammar...and all that crap...but why do you realy care...are you "my" english teacher???

hehe

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by Grim on Jan. 14 2006,23:42

Not that I don't love flamewars over improper usage of the English language, but let's try to keep this thread on topic--Windows Newbies that want Linux, and in this specific case, DSL, to behave exactly like Windows should be castrated, shot, stabbed, rabbit-punched, have molten lead poured into their eyes, drawn and quartered and strung up.

Oh yeah, and all of that compassionate hand-holding and touchy-feely, repetitive explanations of answers that they are too lazy to look up for themselves.

I should've add the links to ESR's How to Ask Questions the Smart Way, let me do that now:

< How To Ask Questions The Smart Way >

Posted by cbagger01 on Jan. 16 2006,05:51

The original OS9 was written for the 8-bit Motorola 6809 processor, such as the original Radio Shaft TRS-80 Color Computer and Color Computer 2

Back in the Mid 1980's I was able to boot OS9 on my Color Computer 2

It was difficult to do much with the OS because I only has a single-sided 35-track floppy drive for disk storage and the OS itself took up most of the space on the disk.

But I was able to create an additional serial text console and was able to have a friend log in via the RS-232 port and a 300 baud modem.

So yes, it was possible to set up a UNIX-like multiuser system using a Color Computer.

Try that with your neighbor's Commodore 64

Posted by AwPhuch on Jan. 17 2006,01:02

Quote (Grim @ Jan. 14 2006,18:42)

This is why I like you man...

You tell it how it is

P.S. mikshaw neener neener neener!

heh

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by Grim on Jan. 17 2006,02:50

Quote (AwPhuch @ Jan. 16 2006,18:02)

This is why I like you man...

You tell it how it is

P.S. mikshaw neener neener neener!

heh

Brian
AwPhuch

As far as the misuse of the english language goes, and I'm not picking on anybody here, but the entire point of language is to convey ideas. As long as there is no way that the reader can be misled by what someone has written, nitpicking over grammer is a fruitless endeavor.

Short answer--We're hear to share knowledge, not write a term paper. Your grade will be based on content, not grammatical/spelling errors.

We've got enough problems drawing a big neon arrow to the answers of questions that have been ansered a hogjillion times without turning on each other over something so petty as to where it's appropriate to use double quotes.

Posted by Grim on Jan. 17 2006,02:57

Quote (cbagger01 @ Jan. 15 2006,22:51)

The original OS9 was written for the 8-bit Motorola 6809 processor, such as the original Radio Shaft TRS-80 Color Computer and Color Computer 2

See, you're so far over my head, I don't even know which OS you're talking about here.

I hear OS9 and I think Macintosh. I thought that maybe you were talking about Plan9, of which I know next to little, but this OS9 you speak of that ran on a Trash-80, I know nothing.

C'mon, gimme some links, teach me something. ;)

Posted by jtiger on Jan. 17 2006,04:04

On quotes and "quotes" and DSL newbies....

So duh...there's a geek and wannabe geek divide--but it's also true that almost everyone who uses Linux wants to get the f*** away from Microsoft, and yet, there are those screwy tasks in the world like printing, which usually doesn't require searching through databases for hours to see what computer might be compatible when you have Winblose, because the company made all of its printers Windows compatible. I just shelled out money on a printer hoping to use it on DSL to find out that it wasn't compatible with Linux, period (and it's HP, at that!). But I love DSL and am willing to suffer: terse, cryptic instructions, the challenge of "rewriting" code (scripting) without being a programmer or having done it b4, and a hard learning curve secure in the knowledge that I am becoming more independent from the Evil Empire by the day to the amazement and shock of some of my friends, who think I should be focusing on my "dissertation" (-to-be). But what do they know.

P.S. There are other ways of looking at language than focusing on its referential function (to "communicate" "ideas"). One way is to look at all of the functions of language present in an utterance (among others, the conative function, the metalinguistic function and the poetic function). Cf. Roman Jakobsen's oft-cited essay "Poetics and Linguistics" (do a Google search).

IMHO, the use of quotes around the word 'got' in the phrase "I "got" Linux" may be a visual deployment of "sudden onset" aspect which is otherwise performable in certain spoken Englishes (variously socially distributed) through intonation and other paralinguistic features. However, it is true that the use of such quotes in terms of style is subject to contention and warnings against "overuse" in prescriptive grammar texts and ultimately, their interpretation is subject to considerations of uptake and other emergent intertextual factors.

Posted by AwPhuch on Jan. 17 2006,04:51

Quote (jtiger @ Jan. 16 2006,23:04)

On quotes and "quotes" and DSL newbies....

So duh...there's a geek and wannabe geek divide--but it's also true that almost everyone who uses Linux wants to get the f*** away from Microsoft, and yet, there are those screwy tasks in the world like printing, which usually doesn't require searching through databases for hours to see what computer might be compatible when you have Winblose, because the company made all of its printers Windows compatible. �I just shelled out money on a printer hoping to use it on DSL to find out that it wasn't compatible with Linux, period (and it's HP, at that!). �But I love DSL and am willing to suffer: �terse, cryptic instructions, the challenge of "rewriting" code (scripting) without being a programmer or having done it b4, and a hard learning curve secure in the knowledge that I am becoming more independent from the Evil Empire by the day to the amazement and shock of some of my friends, who think I should be focusing on my "dissertation" (-to-be). �But what do they know.

P.S. �There are other ways of looking at language than focusing on its referential function (to "communicate" "ideas"). �One way is to look at all of the functions of language present in an utterance (among others, the conative function, the metalinguistic function and the poetic function). �Cf. Roman Jakobsen's oft-cited essay "Poetics and Linguistics" (do a Google search).

IMHO, the use of quotes around the word 'got' in the phrase "I "got" Linux" may be a visual deployment of "sudden onset" aspect which is otherwise performable in certain spoken Englishes (variously socially distributed) through intonation and other paralinguistic features. �However, it is true that the use of such quotes in terms of style is subject to contention and warnings against "overuse" in prescriptive grammar texts and ultimately, their interpretation is subject to considerations of uptake and other emergent intertextual factors.

....

Me caveman...me grunt...me fling poo like monkey

Heh...ok...you win..your IQ is waaaaay above mine

Yeesh!

Brian
AwPhuch

Posted by cbagger01 on Jan. 17 2006,05:03

With a well written explanation, wikipedia comes through for me:

< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS-9 >

< http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRS-80_Color_Computer >

I had (actually, still have... somewhere in the basement) a Color Computer 2 with 16K of RAM and Extended Basic. I upgraded to the max of 64k RAM and also added a 35 track single sided 5.25" floppy drive (Actually, it was a 40 track drive but the op system only supported 35 tracks) and a 300 baud modem.

Using the above hardware, I was able to boot OS9 and configure a remote login via the modem and "muli-task" with two users (local console + modem).

The 6809 CPU and OS9 were a very powerful combination back in the day when you consider the price/performance vs. the alternatives. Personally, I just toyed around with the OS a bit and mostly stuck with DECB because most of the software that was available to me was written to be loaded by DECB.

Of course the 32 x 16 terminal monitor (a TV set) with no lowercase letters was a bit of a hardship

Posted by pr0f3550r on Jan. 17 2006,11:03

Back to the topic: there's no such a thing as a Microsoft convert. Using Micro$oft products for more than 2 weeks contaminates one's mind and that's totally irreversible.
Sorry guys, but that's the way it is.
I speak for myself: my adoption of Unix, and then Linux, was nearly immeadiate and required little effort, for the simple reason that I never owned a PC...